Stall Procudures

During the following email exchange, Russell had taken the day off and was not at the hangar doing his job. These emails demonstrate Russell lack of knowledge of aircraft certification, the effects of stalls and spins, and his total lack of social skills.

Dear All,

Following the issue that we had yesterday during the stall recover training with Jouna and Denis, I need to say a few words.

1. Demonstration of stalls and recovery techniques is very important to the PPL flight training. However, let's not forget, that Liberty is not an aerobatic aircraft and we have to bear in mind that if we do, indeed, enter a spin as a result of a fully-developed stall, we are venturing into the "unchartered waters" and the recovery may be difficult, if not impossible. ***Note: This is not true. All aircraft are spin tested, whether or not they are certified. The reason for not allowing spins is the stress on the airframe - not the difficulty in recovery. ***  This aircraft is not certified for spins and we must not allow it to enter a spin. It is it your responsibility, as an FI, to ensure that this does not happen, regardless of circumstances
2. During the PPL stage of training, I would suggest that all FI's demonstrate and ensure student's proficiency in recovery from the incipient stages of stall, ie, recover when the aircraft buffets. However, FIs should be free to demonstrate a full stall, coordinated and uncoordinated alike, and recovery from it well before entering an incipient spin. During such demonstration, students need to be observing only. Before the demonstration, students must be briefed on the positive exchange of aircraft controls procedure to ensure that they do not hold of touch controls during the demonstration.

3. During the more advanced stages of flight training, such as CPL, students will be required to become proficient in fully developed stall recovery.

4. As an additional safety precaution, do not practice incipient stalls below 3,500 feet AGL. *** Note: There is no such thing as “incipient stalls”. They are called “imminent stalls”. *** Do not demonstrate fully-developed stalls below 4,500 feet AGL.

Kind regards,

Russell

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The chief pilot (a 70-year old veteran Indonesian pilot) chimes in:

All,
This exercise is to build up awareness to the student so it must be done with caution esp. when you ask them to do it. This can happen when student in solo returning to base with marginal visibility and he/she don't want to loose the runway and keep looking at it, also on base leg and maybe at low circuit to keep rw inside and steeper bank angle. All those factors will lead to danger if we do not inject them with awareness.
All can happen in flight training, so beware and discuss with others
Sulistyo

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Dear All,

Please read and understand the CASR regulations under part 61.  The following is required aeronautical experience prior to a student pilots first solo.  The is in reference to CASR part61.87e.5 pre solo flight training...

(e) For aeroplanes, in addition to the maneuvers and procedures in Paragraph (d) of this Part, the student pilot must have received pre-solo flight training in -
(1) Approaches to the landing area with engine power at idle and with partial power ;
(2) Slips to a landing ;
(3) Go-arounds from final approach and from the landing flare in various flight configurations including turns ;
(4) Forced landing procedures initiated on takeoff, during initial climb, cruise, descent, and in the landing pattern ; and
(5) Stall entries from various flight attitudes and power combinations with recovery initiated at the first indication of a stall, and recovery from a full stall.

This is required training.  The regulations should be reviewed by personnel prior to making decisions.

Denis

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Denis,

Please read and understand the regulations:

"The student pilot must have received pre-solo training" does not stipulate, that the student must demonstrate proficient in recovering from full stalls. Giving flight training in fully-developed stall recovery may involve demonstration only.

The first indication of a stall is a stall horn, not even a buffet. I am quite sure I heard this from even an FAA FISDO examiner. However, if we ask them to demonstrate proficiency in recovery from an incipient stall (or the second indication of stall, which is buffet) it will be sufficient for their pilot proficiency at this stage. Obviously, to avoid this situation all together, under normal circumstances, not involving stall demonstrations,  they should be taught to recover as soon as they hear a stall horn.

In the DGCA PPL exam, the students are never required to demonstrate proficiency in recovery from a full stall. I am well acquainted with the DGCA some examiners and they never require such demonstration even in a C172. In an XL2, not certified for spins, the chances of such request are even lower.

The point is: you've been advised of the company policy regarding this matter in my previous email. If you feel that you can not comply with it, we'll need to have a very different chat.

Kind regards,

Kind regards,

Russ Sherwood

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Russ,

Please remove me from this discussion. This is unprofessional and unbecoming. Please stop.

Please schedule a meeting with all instructors to discuss flight policies and discontinue using a group email to snipe at other instructors.

Sincerely,

- Kate

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Kate,

This group email was initiated by our Jakarta management to discuss the situation. Since you are an FI here, you need to be included.

I will schedule a meeting upon my return from Jakarta, possible Thursday afternoon. In a meantime, please pay attention to my request in the previous email.

Also, which part of this do you regard as "sniping"? I sent an email with a directive to adhere to certain procedures. Please explain.

Thanks,

Kind regards,

Russ Sherwood

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Russ,

Here is the full excerpt from the DGCA regulations.  It does clearly state as I have stated.  PLease review this so we can have the proper discussion. This would have been a perfect time to do today had everyone not flying been at the hangar.

This is directly from the DGCA CASR regulations:
"(c) Pre-solo flight training.
Prior to being authorized to conduct a solo flight, a student pilot must have received and logged instruction in at least the applicable maneuvers
.....
(5) Stall entries from various flight attitudes and power combinations with recovery initiated at the first indication of a stall, and recovery from a full stall."

You cannot simply pick and choose the maneuvers you wish the student to perform as it is clearly stated in the DGCA regulations.  As stated in my prior emails if LIFT wishes to remove this training requirement from the syllabus it must be brought up to the DGCA and implemented into the TPM with the DGCA approval.

Denis

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Pk Sulis,

Since this is clearly an argumentative subject, could you please make an inquiry with an appropriate DGCA flight examiner, whether or not PPL students will be required to demonstrate proficiency in recovery from fully-developed stalls in a training aircraft, which is not certified for spins.

I'd like to have this information before our Thursday meeting.

Thanks in advance,

Russell

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That's why LIFT took experienced F/I those exercise is very basic I don't want to mess up with DGCA people. Please use our standard and follow what is mentioned In CASR. I agree with Kate this is not supposed to be a polemic if you are an experienced F/I. Thanks

Sulistyo

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Dear all,

There will be a flight department staff meeting on Thursday afternoon. Exact time TBA, depending on flight schedule.

Kind regards,

Kind regards,

Russ Sherwood

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The following statement was issued by Liberty a couple of years ago: